Is Save-money-diving.com about to reincarnate as topliveboards.com?
A while ago there was a diving liveaboard reselling company called save-money-diving.com, which by some accounts, did good work. They re-sold diving liveaboard safaris often cheaper than what the operators themselves sold it for, by undoubtedly sacrificing their own commissions.
Why would they do such a thing? A plausable theory is that it’s a quick buck, and if your operation consists of you working from your living room with probably zero staff and very little overhead, it’s good money. All you have to do is re-sell somebody else’s product, right?
Not so, because something went terribly wrong somewhere and one day, just suddenly, save-money-diving.com simply disappeared. They threw up an ‘under maintenance’ sign on their website and seemingly dropped off the face of the planet. Many people were reportedly left high and dry with holidays they paid to SMD, but which wasn’t paid to the operators.
For a while the diving community, forums and the Internet were abuzz with news of an apparently fly-by-night operation that disappeared, along with its owners, off the radar, leaving people scrambling to contact the owners to recoup lost monies and repair spoiled holidays. They appeared to be liveaboard scammers / dive holiday cheaters / diving safari con artists.
And eventually that buzz also died off and that was the last of that. Or so I thought.
Today, through the grapevine, I got to know about a new start-up called topliveaboards.com.
Topliveaboards.com is clearly a new diving safari liveaboard re-seller who is preparing to launch a shiny new website. The website is new, because they’re still adjusting the code and content, which is being updated little by little every day.
But I couldn’t help notice something peculiar. Topliveaboards.com is recycling code from save-money-diving.com.
The most glaring proof of this is a domain whois, which reveals the description of the website:
Save-money-diving.com offers a complete range of worldwide scuba destinations, all on one easy-to use website
You can see this if you view the source code of the index page at topliveaboards.com as well (Right click → View Page Source) (since first writing, the code has been removed). And then the title of the About Us page is ‘About SMD’. SMD obviously standing for save-money-diving. There is also a reference to SMD in the ‘Why choose us’ section.
Additionally, the basic layout of topliveaboards.com is very similar to save-money-diving.com, as you can see from bybrain.com’s portfolio. Both are/were based on this 3 column, thin-fat-thin design with a world map in the centre of the main page (since the first writing topliveaboards.com have removed the world-map).
Because it’s a template previously used by another liveaboard re-seller, it’s not inconceivable that somebody picked up the pages and adapted the design for their own use. I mean, save-money-diving.com presumably disappeared with what seemed to be money troubles, angry holiday makers on their heels – surely they wouldn’t just rename themselves and relaunch a similar-looking website would they?
As it turns out, it’s plausable.
Although the whois record of save-money-diving.com now shows differently, I found another forum post which lists the registrar of save-money-diving.com as Diving Online co Ltd (confirmed at the bottom of this active page), with an address in Thailand (they’ve also been associated with an address in Singapore, which is where Save-Money-Diving PTE LTD is a registered company).
Topliveaboards.com is registered by Diving Online Ltd (although the ‘co’ as been omitted). According to the address listed in the whois record, and a quick verification on Google Maps, the website operates out of a detached, double storey residential house surrounded by farmland in Durham, UK.
Google Maps + Postal Code = Very Scary.
Update – 15 April 2009: Because the registrar of the domain lives in the UK, I’m making an assumption that the company, Diving Online Ltd, is UK registered. Based on that assumption, I learned from WebCHeck at CompaniesHouse.gov.uk (available from 7am – midnight UK time), that it was incorporated on 3 April 2009. Follow the link above and if you want, you can discover their address in Finchley Road, London and the company number. Also try the postal code in Google Maps – it has an actual street view of the building it is registered to operate from. Scary, right?
As always, or usually, at least, my blogs pose a question or two. I ask questions because I don’t know everything – I can merely observe what is out there and draw conclusions based on the facts before me – the questions are asked in the hope that somebody out there might have answers that maybe disprove or substantiate the facts on which my conclusions are based.
This blog post is no different, so the questions are: Is save-money-diving.com being reincarnated as topliveaboards.com, and has save-money-diving.com’s financial / customer woes been solved and squared? And what recourse do those left out of pocket have to recoup their lost earnings?
I, the eternal optimist forever seeing the best in people, am of the opinion that save-money-diving.com for sure solved all its troubles and are ready to do business again for the good of their customers. I’m sure that it’s a simple re-branding exercise that had them rename their new, upstanding enterprise to topliveaboards.com.
Three cheers for transparent business ventures!
Update – 17 April 2009: Someone made a rather long comment below which casts excellent intriguing new light on this matter. He also mentions a few interesting names. [Edited because I really can't be arsed to have to keep on deleting threatening emails]
Me, who knows nothing for sure and can not say what is the truth and what is not, don’t know why anyone would semi-adopt an identity so closely linked to an allegedly fraudulent company.
On another note and in an unrelated matter, I heard that David Martin and Monica Sanhueza were heavily involved with Save-Money-Diving PTE LTD. So, not one to perpetuate rumours, I checked it out.
Through the whois record on the domain Kanaloa-Films.com, it is publicly visible that it was registered by Save-Money-Diving PTE LTD, and that one David Martin is the administrative and technical contact. I Googled “Monica Sanhueza diver” and it revealed a bunch of public listings on liveaboard websites, etc. where she is a contact person for Save-Money-Diving.
Kanaloa-Films.com is all about underwater photography and video footage – if you need some of that, surf on over for contact details.
Update – 17 April 2009 (II): I emailed the first person that commented on this post, Rob Waters, and he replied saying:
“you have the wrong ‘Rob’. Please change the email address on your 1Earth website, as I have been getting tons of frickin emails from it.
– Not the Rob you think I am”.
This is super peculiar, because email addresses are not publicly visible on 1Earth – which means the same commenter is posting on other websites where email addresses are visible. Is it just a fake email address to stay anonymous, or is it a fake comment – and if it’s a fake comment, why?
Update – 18 April 2009: Somebody claiming to be the legal rep for a David Martin and Monica Sanhueza (see the comment below) has posted a comment. I need to verify that I’m in fact dealing with a real entity. If I am and they confirm their details with me, it might be good for people affected by Save-Money-Diving’s sudden disappearance to have a legal representative to communicate with.
If anybody knows the status of Save-Money-Diving PTE LTD in Singapore, whether it’s in receivership, or if it’s bankrupt, or what – perhaps let me know so that I can add it for people who are still left in the lurch about their holidays / money.
Update – 22 April 2009: In a very roundabout way indeed I was contacted by parties who felt defamed by some of the comments on this blog – nobody likes to be defamed by seemingly baseless allegations, which may or may not be true, so you will notice various edits in the text and comments below disconnecting names from allegations preventing any defamation from taking place on this post.
I hope I have managed to retain the crux of this argument in the publicly available information that remains in the article and comments. I think this has focussed suficient attention on this issue, and I hope the publicly avialable information will be off use to those trying to find closure on whatever experiences might have been invovled.
Very, very interesting!! My friend and I arrived in the Maldives on the 19th February to find that our liveaboard trip, booked through SMD, was a scam and we had been ripped off to the tune of nearly £3,000 of our hard earned money!!
After much stress and hardship we managed to finally get on the boat only after we had to pay the entire amount again!!
It looks as if they are back in business but I think that we will be paying them a nice little visit soon to recoup our lost monies!! Any more info will be welcomed??
Regards
Rob Waters
Hi Rob – seems like my eternal optimism about the best in people has let me down yet again
Anyway, if you do a whois on topliveaboards.com at domaintools.com (you might have to register), then you will find a UK telephone number (and address) for the owner of the domain – I would be very surprised if the details are legitimate, but I guess it's worth a try.
Hi.
I'd like to take this opportunity to put everyone in the picture regarding the discussion between save-money-diving.com vs topliveaboards.com because there's a few postings on the internet regarding the 2 websites being one and the same company.
In 2007 I used to work at Save Money Diving as their webmaster. I only lasted 4 months because I was having problems getting paid on time from them. (edited by 1Earth – 22 Apr 09) … staff came and went, even in the short time I worked for him. Eventually, during a very heated conversation, I managed to negotiate a copy of their website framework as my final payment. This was back in 2007.
When I left the company I continued working in Phuket as freelance diving instructor, mainly for Rec-2-Tec who were also stiffed by Save Money Diving for a considerable amount of money. I also as tour leader for Eden Divers before returning to the UK in November 2008.
I purchased the topliveaboards.com domain in April 2008 with the notion that I would eventually come back home and get it online, which I've recently done. I'm not a complete numpty and had I known about save-money-divings deplorable behaviour I would have been very careful to remove all reference of the name from the topliveaboards.com site before it went live. The same is true if I were save-money-diving trying to pull a fast one and set up again under a different name. I even registered the company name as Diving Online Ltd., which is the same name used in Singapore by save-money-diving. Do you think I really would have done this if I were save-money-diving?
The fact is that I am NOT save-money-diving and therefore, as far as I was concerned, had no real need to do this. I knew their site was offline recently but I assumed it was for routine maintenance as the index page claims.
I'd like to assure everyone that I am most definitely NOT ASSOCIATED in any way shape or form with save-money-diving.
I will do everything I possibly can to help locate… I do not agree with such dishonest behaviour and I truly believe that whatever you do in life, good or bad, will have repercussions later down the line. It's appalling that they've continued to take bookings with obviously no intention of ever paying the dive operation. I always found them… (edited by 1Earth – 22 Apr 09) … They completely stiffed one of my good friends that worked for them out of money too.
I'm not sure what might be relevant in tracking them down so I will just tell you as much as I know. (edited by 1Earth – 22 Apr 09)…… invested in save-money-diving.com along with another guy. I never met this person as he was based in France but I used to have to email him the web stats every day. I simply knew him as … his email address. Basically … was the money man and a serious investor with fingers in many pies. He was basically the money man … (edited by 1Earth – 22 Apr 09)
While I was working as their webmaster the company was discussing relocating its technical department and web hosting to Tunisia … (edited by 1Earth – 22 Apr 09) I left soon after but I've checked the name servers on the save-money-diving domain and they end with TN so it appears that they did actually go ahead and relocate their hosting at the very least.
(edited by 1Earth – 22 Apr 09) …
Thats about as much as I know … (edited by 1Earth – 22 Apr 09). I've made some enquiries within the Phuket dive community as to his whereabouts and when I get any feedback I will post it here. I will continue to investigate the partner too. I'm truly sorry for any of you that has lost money with these guys. Under section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, customers who have a claim against a supplier for breach of contract or misrepresentation will generally have an equal claim against the card issuer.
Kindest Regards
M. Robinson
I think its disgusting that companies can simply take peoples hard earned money, disappear with it leaving them with no holiday and extra bills and then simply change a few pictures on a website and call it a different name!!
if they are based in the UK then they should be reported and action taken, its a disgrace.
are the credit card companies that have been defrauded able to take action against them?
I've read some reports (one) where the credit card company was able to reverse the charges and recoup the monies. Reportedly the company's previous incarnation (Save-Money-Diving Pte Ltd), registered in Singapore, went into receivership and thus the rest of the claims will take a while to be repaid, if at all.
its not that clear cut though is it?
someone that says that they worked for the old company sets up a new company under the same name and uses the same website and we are meant to believe that its different people? and if it is different people then it seems that topliveaboards simply copied a website complete with all the text and called it their own, i mean why would an online company give someone their website?
seems much more likely that they are one and the same, same person, same website, same company name
True – if I was duped by my employers who duped their customers I certainly wouldn't go set up shop that looked like them with a name they used, but that's just me; and you; and probably a lot of other people.
This message is for the administator of this forum.
We are the legal advisors of Monica Sanhueza and David Martin. Their names as well as some of their personal information have been mentioned in this forum
1 Earth has no right to publish anybody's name nor personal information without permission.
The discusion is about Save-Money-Diving and the other company and NOT about these individuals.
What has been published by 1Earth is defamation and we kindly ask you to remove the statements where these two persons names and personal information are mentioned.
Thank you
Regards,
Arthur Schreiber
Dear Arthur Schreiber, thank you for your note. Can you please give me the name, telephone number and address (in Bangkok, right?) of your law firm / company, as well as your designation and email address, so that I can verify who you say you are – lots of imposters are trying to post here, like this person dude189 from this afternoon.
Upon verification, I would be happy to privately discuss with you which part of my article you deem defamatory with the eye on removing such statements, if in fact there are any.
It has to be said, the names and details listed in this article are matters of public record, available from Google, liveaboard indexes, dive websites, forums, domain records and tens of websites where your clients themselves listed such details – there's nothing new in this article, it's on the Internet there to see for anybody who wants to look for it.
I look forward to straightening things out, if in fact there are things to be straightened out.
Guys I already explained to you. I left in 2007 with the code in lieu of final payment. I never knew about their recent antics. If I were SMD setting up again I would certainly be sure to remove all traces of their name. But seeings that I am not SMD and didn't have the foggiest about their criminal behaviour I didsee the need. The only thing that was worth anything to me at the time of leaving the company was the code as i was familiar with it through working on it. So I had no option but to get this in lieu of nearly 4 months salary. I'm sure that the code on the SMD site would have been updated and developed since 2007. The TL is reminiscent of the SMD site in 2007 but shouldn't be similar to the recent SMD site (although I don't know this for sure as I haven't been following their activity). Its the honest truth. I would never be involved in something so horrid. I have morals. I am happy to supply anyone with any information they need from me. I truly have nothing to hide. I have evidence including salary slips to prove that I have been working for other establishments since 2007. My passport also shows that I was away from Thailand during this time. I have never been any more than an employee for SMD and haven't been in contact with them since leaving.
also the topliveaboards site was registered well before any of this recent stuff happened.
In response to Iain an online company would give someone their website because the individual they are giving it to wrote most of it anyway and could reproduce it pretty easily if he wanted to. I just needed to get something for my own peace of mind rather than walk away empty handed and out of pocket.
The post from Mr Schreiber mentions two people who aren't very happy about their details being made public. What does this suggest? I really have nothing to hide and admit that I have been naive in my research before putting my site online but that is all I am guilty of.
Using the Diving Online name was a stupid move, I know that and hindsight is a wonderful thing. However I was told by Companies House when I tried to register the company that Top Liveaboards would cost extra to register as it had the name 'board' in it. I was asked if I could think of anything else and Diving Online came to mind. I've always thought it an pretty good name for Dive related Internet company and didn't realise it would be associated with anythign negative. As I said I wasn't aware of SMD's recent position. I was like a rabbit caught in the headlights and had to think of an alternative name to Top Liveaboards pretty quickly. It sounds ridiculous, even as I am writing this I am cringing, but I am honestly telling the truth and have absolutely nothing to hide from anyone. Very stupid of me yes. But had I have known about the whole SMD nonsense, or had I been SMD reincarnating itself, I would surely have selected something different, and made sure to remove all traces of SMD from the underlying web code.
how can the alleged lawyer say that the discussion is not about this David & Monica people, it seems that they were the ones that ran the original save money diving customer center based in Thailand called Diving Online CO Ltd and they were the ones that dealt with all the customers and took their money and then didnt pay the resorts and boats which meant that honest people who had paid hard earned money ended up with no holiday
i hope that he is in fact a genuine lawyer for them as I am sure that there are plenty of people as well as many credit card companies that would like to begin legal discourse with them about the fraud that they committed
there needs to be more control over online companies to save people being defrauded
i for one prefer to deal with real people in real companies rather than these virtual ones that can disappear with your money in the blink of an eye
Hi,
Regarding save money diving, my friend Fred and his buddy Rob (who has submitted a post) did find themselves stranded in Male as smb had not paid the livaboard for their trip. Thankfully they got their money back via their credit card company. But there is no compensation for the two days of hell they had not knowing if they would have to fly home having lost a holiday they had saved for over many months and looked forward to.
Although they did get their money back it certainly affected their holiday as they did not know if they would be reimbursed until they returned. Also, on their return the enjoyment of sharing their holiday experiences was muted as they had to start to try to get their money back. Not fun!!
As Fred said on his posting on scubaboard, if you are booking a holiday make sure they are bonded by ABTOL(not sure if I have got the spelling correct!) or other reputable authority. Even when you do get your money back ( if indeed you do) it does not compensate you for the hassle, time and emotinal upheaval that has been caused.
Fred is forwarding all the information he can to his credit card company so hopefully they can also be reimbursed as the rest of us pay for this as well and why should we?
Thanks for thaking the time to read this. By the by, they did have a brilliant holiday and I am still jealous!!
Tricia (uk)
As a legal advisor of Mr Martin and Mrs Sanhueza , I would like to say that they were employed by Save-Money-Diving and are not anymore.
They were never decision makers nor main shareholders of the company.
The current situation of Save-Money-Diving was decided by the main shareholders in Singapore.
Anybody looking to get in touch with SMD for legal issues can still do so by using their contact in Singapore:
3 Anson Road
27-01
Springleaf Tower
Singapore, Singapore 079909
Mr Matt Robinson, user of this forum, has made false allegations about the responsibility of Mr Martin and Mrs Sanhueza in today's situation of SMD as well as about these two persons' activities and private lives.
Mr Martin and Mrs Sanhueza do not know if Save-Money-Diving did or did not make a deal with Matt Robinson to reincarnate the website into Topliveaboards.com
Arthur Schreiber on behalf of Mr Martin and Monica Sanhueza
Arthur Schreiber, the most glaring detail in your reply is the absence of any of your information that will allow me to verify who you say you are.
I wouldn't be surprised (a guess based on your Yahoo! email address) if you are in fact Monica.
Regardless, with the Internet at my fingertips (I haven't even started making phone calls yet) I did some <del datetime="2009-04-19T10:47:49+00:00">digging</del> research about your claims. You claim they were employed and never decision makers, or main shareholders.
That might be true for Monica Sanhueza, however, according to a public document obtained from http://www.acra.gov.sg/, as of the last AGM held on 07/01/2008, David Georges Martin was in fact 1 of 3 Directors of Save-Money-Diving PTE LTD and listed as a shareholder. Another Director is the mystery man mentioned by Matt.
[edited by 1Earth - 22 Apr 09]
Now, PTE LTD means it's a Private Limited company, which means the directors have only restricted liability when it comes to company debt. It makes me wonder exactly how much the directors of this company cab be held liable for.
People trying to recoup monies from Save-Money-Diving PTE LTD, but don't know what is true in this blog post and what is not, may be interested in the company documents and Director information to be found at:
acra.gov.sg -> Acra Registered Business Entities (left-hand side menu) -> Type SAVE-MONEY and click search.
You can choose which document you are interested in. There's a small fee (SGD$5 for the basic info), but they are almost instantly available via an email link. And to those effected, the document might potentially be worth its weight in gold.
You know, discussions are born out of a need to know. In this instance, a company simply disappeared and people are out of pocket.
Nobody knows what happened to the company. If they knew it was bankrupt, that would probably suffice, but there's just nothing.
And an office address in Singapore? Are people supposed to write in? Buy a ticket to Singapore and walk in? And how do they know the mail will get there, or that when they arrive there they won't just find empty offices?
If there was solid information about the status of the company and a phone number with a live human at the other end, there would be very little to discuss on forums and blogs.
Instead of trying to disassociate with the issue, wouldn't it just be easier to address it? Something like "the company went bankrupt, it's in receivership, phone the auditors on 555 whatever to find out how to file your claim".
Instead of chasing people who mentions your name (and if you are the director of the company, your name will crop up), why not just solve the problems for the customers who once paid your salary and clear the slate?
I guess we all choose how to apply our energies, don't we?
I've been reading the threads on the various online forums.
I got intrigued when I saw the Singapore address pop up, because I reside in Singapore, so I decided to do a little digging.
The address listed (27-01 Springleaf Tower) seems to belong to Compact Administrative Services:
http://www.streetdirectory.com/jobs/singapore/com… http://www.timesbusinessdirectory.com/CompanyProf… ADMINISTRATIVE SERVICES PTE LTD
This company seems to be a provider of corporate secretarial services, so I don't think you'll be able to find the people that are responsible at the posted address.